Enlightened Debate
Debate and Enlightenment !

My original post:
Ok so this is a bit more serious… I wrote this as part of a paper but it ended
up being put into a debate thing between me and another guy– I’ll keep updating
it as the “debate” continues.
I do firmly believe in logic… but like everything else, logic is relative. If
you are really into astronomy I am sure that you know about the various theories
of origin and how they have been modified since the Big Bang theory first came
out. I wont get technical here, but I find it very ironic and yet at the same
time very fitting that the secrets of the origins of the universe might lie
inside the tiniest of subatomic particles. Ironic because of the vast difference
in scale and yet fitting because the underlying structure of the universe seems
to consist of patterns of varying sizes… of electrons orbiting a nucleus, of
planets orbiting a sun, of suns revolving around the nucleus of the galaxy etc.
And then quantum mechanics comes in and talks about multiple dimensions, super
strings and multiple realities. You see, at some point we begin to realize is
logic is just our way of simplifying the universe to something our minds can
understand. But who is to say that what we can comprehend is all there is? I had
earlier mentioned how Newton’s Laws were a subset of (the less logical) Einstein’s
Laws, and in normal everyday conditions Newton’s Laws would hold up fine. It was
only at very high energies and very high densities of matter that they began to
break down and it was realized they only covered part of reality, not all of it.
I submit that our logic also covers only part of reality, the part that we
understand, and that it is only a subset of all that is truly out there. (Or one
reality in multiple realities.) Structures and forms we are not equipped to
explore today (for example, the interior of black holes where time completely
stops). And yet one day we might be in the technological position to actually be
able to examine them (far into the future, when superluminal space travel
becomes possible– something that is still but theories in modern-day physics
journals, but inching ever closer to reality.)
Just as an aside here– but did you know that our universe can be thought of as
a black hole? And us as being inside that black hole? Think of the definition of
a black hole– nothing can escape it, not even light, and it has its own unique
physical laws. Our universe fulfills ALL those requirements… So the black
holes we can detect are actually black holes within black holes, like bubbles
within bubbles…
Besides poking through the space barrier, in recent years quantum physics has
also begun to poke through the time barrier. Now this might seem the most “illogical”
statement of all, but one day in the far flung future we might be able to travel
through time as well. Time is not an absolute, Einstein proved that; and his
work has been extended. It’s just too bad they dont teach that in school… just
trying to keep things “simple.” I wont go into technical details here, but
cutting edge physicists may have found a way around the classical time paradox
of “meeting yourself” in the past. So far only atoms and the tiniest of
molecules have been sent back into the past… but it seems that time branches
off into different streams, so if one day, it did become possible to send people
into the past, they wouldnt meet the past self, but they would create an
entirely new branch of reality that would exist concurrently with the one that
person “left.” That is, basically, there are many different “yous” that exist on
different branches of the “reality tree” and the position of each is dependent
on the choices they have made… like, what color clothes to wear on a
particular day, who they were polite to, etc. There are an infinite number of
branches and by going back in time, instead of changing any of them, you just
create a new one, because going back in time is a choice that was made.
Lol, I digressed a little but my basic point is, that if we just stick to our
five senses and the part of reality they can detect and measure and delineate,
we would never have made these technological leaps– the greatest scientific
progress has come through intuition, of deep thought processes that jumped
beyond the conventional wisdom and helped humankind attain a new plateau of
development. Yes logic and steady progress are very important, but they have
their limits. They are like the foot soldiers who win the little battles… it
is not the foot solider who will win the war, but the brilliant general who
thinks far ahead of his adversary, like the great Hannibal who brought Rome down
on her knees.
We see examples of unexplained phenomena even to this day. Yes 90% of it is hoax
or snake oil, but there remains a 10% that is legitimate. Scores of documented
cases of twins knowing the other was in trouble when there was no physical
connection between the two, dreams that someone had that a loved one was about
to pass away completely unexpectedly (my sister and I can affirm we had almost
the exact same dream about our mother having a really bad wreck while she was
away on the west coast– and by the time we tried to contact her, it was too
late), on a scientific level numerous studies showing that people can
communicate to each other through their dreams, or that the mere power of
concentrated thought can improve the condition of terminal patients. All of this
is beyond the realm of classical, conventional physics, the physics they teach
in the classroom. But you see, that physics is hundreds of years old. If you
delve into modern day cutting-edge quantum physics, you find that some of what
you call “mysticism” actually has a basis in scientific reality. Just consider
that alot of what we do today would be considered “mysticism” a couple of
hundred years ago. Just think of what a person from the 1800s would think of you
sitting there typing in front of a monitor! You would be called a witch! My
point is we are just beginning to poke holes in the reality around us– the
reality beyond the five senses. Just like the colors we see around us are but a
very very small fragment of the electromagnetic spectrum, so the reality we can
detect is but a very tiny part of a much greater whole. Startlingly like Plato’s
many levels of existence or realities. (In quantum physics refered to as
multiple dimensions.) I hope I havent bored you with this, I just wanted to give
you my thoughts.
BTW The conventionals will hold onto old ideas even with their dying breath. It
is part of human nature to resist change, because people fear it. Just like when
Copernicus and Galileo removed earth from being the center of the solar system.
But sooner or later the truth does come out. It’s a great quality of humanity
that we are always in search of the truth, even if that truth is multifaceted
and has many different levels to it.
I added the next part when the debate thing started between me and John…
Ok I hope that I didnt bore you with my little spout there… just trying to
organize some thoughts in my mind. I feel this information is cogent to the
topic of government concealment because, you see, I believe influences inside
the government have knowledge that they have with held from the general
scientific community. There has been ample evidence that space craft have landed
on earth in the past… and that the government has actively concealed knowledge
of such… going back to the 1940s. Presidents Carter and Clinton even tried to
have classified information concerning govt investigations of such declassified
but they were blocked by then chief of cia GEORGE BUSH SR. (it runs in the
family) and Clintons efforts were likewise thwarted. The secret base established
in New Mexico, known as Area 51 is shrouded in mystery… and not coincidentally,
it was established soon after the Roswell Incident… and I firmly believe the
Govt cannibalized space vehicles and used the knowledge to create such
futuristic crafts as the stealth bomber. The dept of defense is has successfully
been sued so that more information can become public on this matter… but as
you know, when something involves bureaucracy, it always takes alot of time.
Meanwhile evidence has also been mounting in other countries, such as France and
Russia (France even published a government level memorandum and the old Russian
KGB have documented several cases of space craft around nuclear bases.) I have
seen several reputed independ researchers piece together govt documents that
point towards a conspiracy in this area… not only of crashed space craft but
also of bodies and remains being found and taken for analysis onto a military
base. If you want me to send you more information just let me know and I will.
By the way much of this work has the backing of people in the scientific
community, who, while not sold on extraterrestrial visitors, do feel our
government is hiding something.
I can understand, at some level, why the govt might want to hide knowledge for
strategic reasons… reasons of national security, etc. But when other nations
are benefiting from the same technology, then whats the point? To keep the
general pubic from panicking, because we, as humans are socially inert and
resistant to change? They have no right to with hold knowledge from us, govt is
there to serve us… not the other way around! But you are right, power corrupts,
and the American Govt is based on precepts going back to the Roman Republic…
which also grew corrupt over time. Maybe it is just our human nature that
anything we create, whether it be buildings, parks, socieities, cultures… or
even babies… will be doomed to corruption and death within a span of certain
time. Nothing humanitty has created has ever lasted for a long time, by the
definition of natural time, not our own limited lifespans. And I think it is
this myopic vision that our govt takes advantage of when making public policy…
we all have a certain innate natural selfishness that we must fight in order to
make the world a better place, to curb the scourges of overpopulation, pollution,
greed and corruption. Sad to say this but it is our own human nature and the
temptations therein we must fight . I sometimes wish I lived in the future, when
the visions of science fiction might become reality and we could see the fruits
of our long labor. I know some of these views might seem farflung to you.. but
think about it John… a hundred years ago… a miniscule amount of time on
evolutionary scales… what would people have said if we described computers and
the internet to them. We would have been put into institutions… Maybe thats
why the govt hides things from us, they dont think we are ready to know, so it
comes out very slowly, in drips and drabs. Reminds me of some of the regrettable
acts done during World War 2, radiation experiments and such done on american
civilians and kept secret (not even going into what they did to people of other
nationalities), not coming out til decades later, when “they” thought the anger
and disgust would not be as great. Time does water things down, but it does not
take the deceit away. Another parallel can be drawn to the assassinations in the
60s (you know who I am referring to)… when Congress even concluded there was a
conspiracy and a coverup… 40 yrs later… but because of the passage of time
they “regrettably” cant do anything, for most of the perpetrators are probably
So this is how the govt excuses itself from responsibilities… through the
passage of time. They think that the horrendeous nature of the lies they commit
grows less with time (because people tend to forget and forgive), and yet it
grows greater. The thing that makes us human is our search for knowledge, our
desire to learn. Whether its global warming, space visitation coverup,
assassinations or human experimentation, there is always some rationalization
for their behavior. The truth is when we start to rationalize causing pain and
suffering to so many people, and keeping them hidden from the truth, because “the
end justifies the means” we lose our own humanity…
John’s Comeback Part 1

This is John’s response– where he excerpted mine, it’s in quotes:
“First of all John, I want to commend you on your very excellent and insightful
posts that go “above and beyond” the call of duty. They set a new mark for
others to strive for in terms of lucidity, elegance and intelligence. I also
feel the same way about your recent posts concerning global warming and the
current administrations ignorance or, more accurately, deceitful concealment. …”
Thank you for apparently caring enough to really understand both the explicit,
but also the implicit aspects of my work..
“…. But the administration takes advantage of social intertia and peoples lack
of desire to change… that resistance to even a small amount of change, that
multiplied over a large population can lead to a HUGE benefit….”
..I believe (personally, as I have not heard this formally studied) that this is
a tool. I believe the GOP is masterfully guiding the voting behavior based on an
apathetic, decaying civility. What I describe is a society that has become fat,
self-absorbed, unable to make that journey into “truly” acknowledging what a
toxic presence they’ve become to this Planet. For their culturally relative
pascification, they’ve also become prone to ideologue mentalities and
unfortunately, religious predisposed belief systems.
In other words, easily soluble of their convictions for having limited ability
for superior rational thought. There is such lacking of a concrete basis for
which to develop a truly self-identifying state of mind, as individuals; thus, a
terrifying result when integrated into a peoples.
Why do you think so much of the last election was one on the backs of morality
twisted in a Christian religious enigma?? And it succeeded!!
True, Republicanism and religious conservatism are often encapsulated in the
same ideology – given some some derivation.. But how much of that is defaulted,
and how much of that is by design?? I think it has evolved over the years
because the GOP are parasitcally latched onto the Church because they were
clever enough decades ago to realize that religion is the Opiat Of The Masses.
…Now, it may be by accident that the two have evolved into the same political
“genome” if you will, but I tend to doubt that. Fact of the matter is, there is
a slippage away from the “unbiased”, analytical voter in this socieaty, in lieu
of those who are easily guided by the 3 headed puppetteer: Corporation, GOP and
As to logic and philosophy question: I do not believe, personally, that logic is
relative. In its purest form it is the same everywhere. It is simply a matter of
finding that purety – and that is key. In corrupted forms, everything from
deception to general miss-interpretation can be born, and is. More over, until
the purety is found, such as the beauty of E=MC^2, we of less scope tend to look
on our surroundings with incredulity before tending to question our selves as
not being prepared to understand. Just another way in which ego-centricities
clouds clad philosophy.
Humanity has a history of being resistence to change, no question about that.
What is a particularly frustrating is when that resistence gets in the way of
progess – and I mean real progress; not the same thing as progressive thinking –
per se. Though, without the latter, descoveries are seldom made. I just don’t
want to get the two confused for will to have a specific meaning here. And, that
is, part of the art of conservatism in politics is using this resistence to
garner support, by plying traditional views. That is the sinister key here: The
strategists of the current administration know how stupid the background voice
of America has become and that is where they are defeating the thinking voters
in recent elections.
It is becoming increasingly obvious to me and colleagues that the power
apparatuses that have infultrated the Goverment are actually exploiting these
principles in tactical manipulation of the masses. And, to what ends?
The purpose for doing that…? Pick your cliche. There is no way to prove
anything. Though, my personal belief unfortunately diverges from yours at this
point. I do not really believe or sense there are aliens amongst us, or much
less, concealed discoveries as to their presence amongst us, either.
Although, one of my favorite movies of all time is
“Close Encounters Of The Third Kind” …How I wish that was real.
However, my belief at the end of the day is in a corruptive apparatus, in
control of our Government, indeed. And, there from related conspiracies abound:
Big business’ bleeding of evidences suggestive of modalities for warfair, ties
of our own Brass into 9/11, evidences that keep surfacing showing direct lying
and dishonesty by burying climate reports… I believe much of that might be
real, but the buck likely stops there.
My Comeback Part 1
I can sense your frustration at the “masses,” even the intelligent masses, for
their ignorance and lack of understanding. I’ve had a similar frustration with
people not interested in things outside selfish and shortsighted personal
pleasure. I do not drink, I do not smoke I do not consume any kind of product
that is totally unnecessary for my wellbeing… and yet I see that so many are
addicted and spend so much time and effort for a short amount of personal gain.
If they put this much effort into improving themselves and their environment,
they would be so much happier and the pleasure they would gain would be MUCH
loger lasting than any of these so-called “high” that they obtain.
I am reading between the lines of what you’ve said concerning the decadence of
human society and I feel that this is where you are drawing a parallel with the
ancient Roman Empire and how bloated and watered down it got through massive
expansion and gradually suffocated under its own weight. I believe the same
thing is happening to America. Unfortunately it is a part of human nature to
become satisfied following the same well-worn paths and innovation crawls to a
stand-still when society loses its progressive nature, because people are afraid
of change. The thing is, they forget that when America was at its greatest, it
was at the forefront of change, and exploration… both in a physical sense and
an intellectual sense. Our society is slowly rotting, from the inside out . I
was hinting at this when I referred to all human created structures and
institutions having a limited lifespan. I believe this also applies to America.
Just like the ancient Roman Empire was in its day, we are in decay. How long
this once-great country will exist, I havent a clue, but I do feel it will not
take the rest of humanity down with it, and in time, another great power will
arise from the ashes of demise. The history of humanity is filled with bumbling
mistakes, sharp urgent crises and seemingly miraculous avoidance of extinction
by the barest of margins. I agree with you that this may be our steepest crisis
yet, but I somehow feel that humanity will find a way to overcome, yet not
without great cost, and there will be a huge cost, and our descendants will look
back upon us with some animosity. “How could you not see this coming, you stupid,
bumbling fools!” comes to mind.
I agree with you that conservatives take full advantage of our short-term urges
over long term goals. Look at the floundering space program… under JFK we went
to the moon, and not only have we not progressed since, we have actually gone
backwards! For humanity to have any hope in the future, there MUST be
colonization of Mars and exploration of the outer planets by manned missions.
There are probably great resources available to us in terms of fuel and such, on
the satellites of the outer planets of Jupiter and Saturn. And think of the
glorious opportunities for pioneer-meterologists colonizing Mars! New geography,
new climate patterns, a whole new world to map out, explore and learn! In the
end I feel we will learn much more about ourselves and our planet by exploration
and research and we should focus our attention there instead of trying to be the
world’s bully and trying to push other nations around. We need to set an example
to the rest of the world, not be the tyrant that tries to mold everyone else’s
way of life.
I agree with you that the marriage of conservatism and corporation which was
presided over by the mantle of so-called “religion” is an unholy alliance, a
sign of the times. I love engaging the religious conservatives in debate, using
their own spirituality as the weapon of choice. I personally believe in
spirituality, but not the way it is handed out by the “church.” They try to
dictate to us what to believe in. Where is their proof? I have my own beliefs…
and who is to say who is right or wrong? The Church has a history of persecuting
others (celts, wiccans, gypsies, native american and druids among others) til
they were brainwashed… does that sound familiar to you? Sounds like the GOP,
with slightly less tact. “Believe our lies and you will find salvation, they say!”
The only difference is the Church’s message has been modernized and the form of
control is more subtle, yet just as pervasive. To me, religions are like several
different languages all trying to communicate with a spiritually higher
existence. I firmy believe in his higher existence but not in religion itself.
Religion is just man’s failed attempt to understand something beyond his
comprehension and the frustrated attempt at trying to control how other people
think, feel and act. I believe in being a moral person, but one should not have
to be threatened with punishment of hellfire in order to be good. The goodness
should come from within. Religion’s failure is that it treats the symptoms not
the underlying cause of the disease, which is degenerating society… something
which is beyond its grasp, something which its simple reward-punishment model of
justice cannot comprehend.
As for corporation, it too has its failings, and these lie in the area of greed
and ignorance of what is really important. Unfortunately, one of our great
conduits of information, the media, has fallen prey to this disease as well.
After all media is part of corporate America, and it is its willing voice to
spread its corrupt and biased philosophy. Too much desire for short term gain
and a devilmaycare atttitude about long term effects is what has plagued
American society of late, and is just another symptom of its decadence. This
greed is very contagious, as it spreads to all levels of American society, and
is pervasive in the business world, in the government and also in religion. We
forget that we are caretakers of this planet and we will be held accountable by
our descendants, OUR CHILDREN, for what we do here. The desire to make the world
a better place has been replaced by the desire for profit at any cost, even
should the cost be the detriment of human living conditions.
In this great chaos that we have created, government has played a key role of
instigator and manipulator. It has used the tools of greed, selfishness and
religion perfectly in order to perpetuate its existence. A philosophy of “succeed
at any cost” permeates its existence, encapsulated perfectly in GWs ignorant and
delinquent attitude about global warming (George W and global warming even have
the same initials, hmmm… there’s a subtle message in there somewhere… ) and
its worldwide implications. Yes, America does exist in the real world, we are
not immortal gods immune to the repercussions of our actions, and even if we (in
some fantastical alternate reality) were, even so, what gives us the RIGHT to
behave thusly toward our fellow humans??? Only our greed, pride and conceit. And
you know what they say about pride… (Funny how hypocritical religon is
concerning the seven deadly sins and the ten commandmens, it seems to break
every one of them.)
I agree with you that “pure logic” is the key to scientific thought. But I do
not believe we have found it yet… at least not as much as we think we have
found. I believe that what we have found is a subset of a much greater entity,
just like Newton’s logic was a subset of Einstein’s And so it goes… Our pride
and ego makes us believe we know the answers to so many questions, and yet our “answers”
pale in comparision to how much more is out there that we don’t know (sometimes
we don’t even know what the questions are let alone the answers.) But this is,
in my belief, is the purpose of human existence. To find these answers, by
learning the right questions to ask, and to acquire a greater knowledge of the
amazing universe that surrounds us all. And conversely, to learn more about
ourselves… for some of the greatest mysteries of existence reside within our
own minds and bodies.
My belief in alien existence is something as basic as mere statistics. I dont
know how familiar you are with astronomy, or astrophysics, but there are so many
sunlike stars just in our Galaxy alone (the nearest turn being a nearly perfect
twin of our sun) and with the large quantities of planetary systems already
detected, the odds are vastly in favor of life, and yes intelligent life,
existing, even relatively close by (This does not even take into account life
existing under- to us- hostile environments.) Now the question becomes, can they
and have they achieved the level of physics necessary for interstellar travel?
Conventional physics says that it is not possible at superluminal speeds and yet
conventional science has been wrong many times in the past and for the same
reasons: we operate in a subset of reality, there is much that we do not know.
This has becoming more and more obvious as quantum physics has found ways that
we could exceed light speed, if we had the proper technological skills. Now we
might not have them yet, but who’s to say that another species, that has existed
for a longer time span (our sun is a third generation star after all), might not
have reached that superior technological skill level to do it? I would
personally say that odds are in favor of it having happened, somewhere in our
galaxy… and if so, then interstellar travel could become a trivial matter. The
same goes for time travel; quantum physics has defeated conventional logic in
determining that this is indeed possible, just beyond our technological level
for now. The reason that conventional logic keeps getting defeated is because in
our self centered egocentric human minds, we think we know almost all there is
to know, and yet there is always much more out there to learn, and we gasp in
wonder when we look back and see how far we come, what we dont realize is we
havent reached the top of the staircase, not even close… and those in the far
distant future will look back and think of us, just as we thought of the people
who existed before the industrial revolution began, and indeed, go far enough
ahead in time and they might think of us as primitive cavemen! To be honest with
you, I think we will achieve weather modification and control (something I
shudder at, for all its implications… including lack of faith in humanity
achieving the same delicate balances that Nature has spent billions of years
perfecting) before we have either intersteller travel or time travel… but we
must begin somewhere, and use the resources at our disposal as stepping stones
to a far greater future for our descendants to inherit. And even these people
from the future will be no closer to reaching Absolute Truth then we are today,
for no matter how much we learn, there is ALWAYS so much more to learn, for
every answer, just leads to more questions…
I do believe that the Government has more knowledge in these areas than it lets
on, for fear of that knowledge and consequent technology falling into the “wrong”
hands (its self-imposed definition of “wrong” being open to debate…in my
opinion, they just dont want any competition.) I agree with you that they also
use this social inertia, this resistance to change, this innate FEAR, as a
formidable weapon to coddle the masses… in their belief we are all the
equivalent of babies and they are our babysitters, or in a more sinister, but
maybe just as accurate, metaphorical expression: we are the druggies and they
the drug dealers… and so many of us (even the media, which, after all, is part
of big business) are HOOKED.
The purpose of all this outright lying, manipulation and concealment? I think
that it is just to keep itself in self-perpetuating existence, by putting us all
into something akin to a drug-induced coma so we do not realize what is going on.
They have slowly, subtly, taken away our democracy, John, just enough to leave
us with the illusion of it but not the real free-will that our forefathers
envisioned. We have become another ***gasp*** Mother England… on a larger much
more monstrous scale… (Our founding forefathers must be turning in their
By Alex H at 8:10pm |
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Debate vs Enlightenment Part 2 – Edit
December 23, 2009
John’s Comeback Part 2 “This will chap your asz” lol
Hi Alex,
Here is something that will chap your asz!
“The Collider Calamity”
By The Editers of Scientific American
“For decades, the big guns of American science have been the U.S. Department of
Energy’s particle colliders, which investigate the nature of matter by
accelerating subatomic particles and smashing them together. Colliders at the
Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory, Stanfor Linear Accelerator Center and
Broookhaven National Laboratory have discove4red exotic particles such as the
top quark and revealed phenomena that hint at new laws of physics. But this
great American enterprise, like so many others, is now moving over seas”.
WHAT!! It’s bad enough that we have to have capital interests doing this,…not
also our research…come on! It was the one aspect of us that we always took to
the bank, our enginuity and discovery. OMG DUDE.
“…While the Europeans and Japanese build new particle accelerators, the U.S.
is poised to shut down its premier colliders over the next few years. And
funding for Borrkhaven’s Relativisitic Heavy Ion Collider is so tight that hte
lab could not have run its full slate of experiments this year without 13
million raised by a New York billionaire…”…
I’m telling you… America is being randsacked! Whether or not the next 100
years proves our theories of conspiracies or not… fact of the matter is, there
is already evidence to prove/demonstrate that we are being eviscerated, while
the rest of us ignoramous blithely know nothing, pacified by our way of life.
Evidence mounds: we are being fed lies that everthing we see and do around us in
this civility is rooted in something more than mere delusion of prosperity and
security. It seems before long, with all research and industry completely
removed ….what is there??
I’ll tell you what there is:
A small cadre of elite trillionaires that sold out our Country and its spirit to
the highest bidder. Having obsconded with the wealth they stole, through careful
and tactical manipulation of corporatation and corruption of the Constitution,
they will be safe in the protected enclaves those kinds of monies can afford.
Meanwhile, the 97.76352542f the remaining Global Human population dies in the
Climate catastrophe meets nuclear holocaustic remains… The elite emerge 10
years later, with the technological infrustructure still tenable, but having the
success of their grand plan: Policy indirection to murdering 6.5 billion people
for their own soul ownership of the Worlds natural resources….Yep, the sky’s
becomes the limit.
That’s what is going to happen. And, the title of a book (creative work) I am
writing follows:
“How The Rich Shall Inherit The Earth”
And by the way: There is no God; at least, there could not be by any logic-failing
scriptures by any sects of Man – so I agree there.
The elite classes greatest dupery over the masses is the corruptive
interpretation of the “original” Bible, and its use in stopping the commoner
from seeing the powers of analytical truth and reason! You mentioned England;
the Midevil Church invented purgatory to keep the masses in line under the
emerging Monarchy power structure of the time…Perfect example, and one pointed
out for an era when the Church was as powerful if not more so than state, and
how the masses were diluted. I see little difference in the GOP using the Church
to galvanize their own voting pools in recent elections and virtual destruction
of bipartisan necessity of U.S. political “genome”.
Scary dude..Though much of that is written for frustration and should not be
taken too seriousy…Fact of the matter is, the kind of obstinacy that is being
demonstrated by the those in power, who have the ability to change the
modalities of natural resource consumption and penalties, and “survivability”
for all, is so obtuse and ludicrous as to defy sound explaination at this point.
Their flappable logic deeply rooted in somantics that are just nauseatingly
transparent. So, in being a sentient being…grasping for those sounder
explanations how any Human could dare tell us the sky on Earth is really red, we
tend to resort to conspiracy forms of thinking… In other words, maybe it is by
design? Either that, or Nostradamus really was right and the Village Idiot did
rise to power. (sarcasm)

You wrote:
The purpose of all this outright lying, manipulation and concealment? I think
that it is just to keep itself in self-perpetuating existence, by putting us all
into something akin to a drug-induced coma so we do not realize what is going on.
They have slowly, subtly, taken away our democracy, John, just enough to leave
us with the illusion of it but not the real free-will that our forefathers
envisioned. We have become another ***gasp*** Mother England… on a larger much
more monstrous scale… (Our founding forefathers must be turning in their
Among many other interesting topics you touched on…This one is interesting
particularly for a philosophical juxtaposition I like to make between advanced
Capitalism and the old system of Monarchy. Actually, just pondering the
following question does all the discussing for me: When you are cow-tied to the
throws of your capital wherewithall in a Capitalistic society, under an
aristocrasy, isn’t that no different than being hemmed into a station under a
King and his immediate apparatus of despotic statesmen??
As you come by the answer, you will have succeeded in writing that essary for me.
As to the Alien thing… I believe life permeates the Galaxy (and others as well).
However, the immediate limitations imposed by Einsteiniam understanding are real,
and a huge herdle must be overcome in getting intelligences to practically make
the trek across the kinds of distance of time and space we are really talking
about. The immensity simply cannot be comprehended for having magnitude in
unfathonable profundity as magnificent as the (Human as yet) descoveries needed
to overcome. Assuming electromagnetism forms of communication across the
vastness of space and time; Human kind’s first radio transmission have swept out
across 1/millionth of the area of the Milkyway Galaxy. Think about that… 100
years (being generous) of radio transmission emanating out in all directions,
traveling a 6 trillion miles a year, has only spread outwards by 100/100,000,000
light years!!
Now, are there newer physical laws and mathematical fronteirs yet descovered
that can circumvent these restrictions – perhaps. But, one thing for sure, we
are no closer to discovering any of those underpinning “accessibilities” to the
secrets and subsequent permissabilities to exceed those limitations, when cuts
in research mean closing all our particle sciences. Perhaps the Europeans and
Japanese will be more successful than we are. At least someone is still up to
the task. As long as we have our HD Television and American Idol episodes, sugar
coated with Bill O’Reilies stellar trustworthy news source, we are not going to
be the civility the makes the big leap I am afraid.
Be that as it may, I do not believe Aliens have visited our planet. This goes by
logical prerequisites… The “purer” forms as it were. I believe that closer to
purer forms of logic exists benevolences. This may just be my personal
conviction, but the mastery over the vastness of Mathematics and Physics, and
the application, which we as a species have probably only scratched the surface
of, would not require conquestial behaviors….
On an entirely simplistic level, why would it? You have everything you need –
probably for successfully manipulating energy and matter – and “need” in its “purest”
form is the same necessity here as it is over there. If you have everything you
need to survive and discover (which such advanced civilizations would have
achieved) anything beyond that is no longer “need”, and therefore, a waste of
expenditure to procure. So, from that chain of reasoning, I think the
benevolency increases with the procurement of wiles. Now, does that mean that
Alien interlopers would not be hostile – no… Perhaps killing and marauding is
as genetically builty into the Zigots as exploration is also hotwired into
Humanity. But, speaking in terms of odds, most civilizations that have conquered
the restrictions of the Cosmos would likely be too wise to bother.
The reason why I’ve mapped that design out to you is because I do not believe
that any civilization with the intelligence to succeed in this area would ever
stray within a light year of this planet.. Just not ready. I do think that the
scientists of Governmental sectors holds back information from science community
at large. But that is likely for other reasons… Such as, contraband treaty
stuff and the U.S. breaking international laws in experimentation and so forth…
The list goes on… Far more rationally explaned than a Alien spaceship crashing
at Roswell NM.
My Comeback Part 2

That does chap my a$$– hard to believe that people in power could be so STUPID
and ignorant about matters such as this and yet cunning and devious at the same
time regarding hiding the the truth from the American people! How can they be so
idiotic as to shoot themselves in the foot by dooming us as also-rans in the
race to the future? Something less obvious and much more cleverly concealed is
happening here…
I also believe there is some grand design at work here. These people are too
cunning and conniving to be so stupid to let the world (along with themselves)
die at the hands of wasteful excess. When you mentioned the possibility of them
insulating themselves against the impending world calamity so that they could
emerge a decade later, with 6.5 billion less people to worry about, it was like
a light bulb went off in my head. AHA! It seems too sickeningly logical to just
dismiss out of hand. It’s sad that its come to this, that such possibilities
need to be entertained.
The ingenious and devious way in which they used the Bible to brainwash the
masses is a textbook example in how to control a large population of supposedly
well-educated people, turning them into docile sheep. Another I would say, would
be turning people against each other, by establishing a stratified class
structure of have and have nots, and created sharp racial and gender barriers…
all of which go towards a grand scheme of divide and conquer… in other words,
we are too busy disagreeing and fighting amongst ourselves to see whats REALLY
going on. I would also say that can be applied to international matters as well…
focus the populace’s attention elsewhere so they cant see whats going on at home.
I really loved the analogy you made between our capitalist society and the old
system of monarchy. It made me think of how we are slaves to our assets in the
same way that, in medieval times, serfs used to be prisoners of the land in the
old feudal system. In the feudal system the lords held all the puppet strings
while the serfs served their every whim; in our case the money is the puppet
string and forces in the govt are the puppeteers. The more things SEEM to change,
the more they REALLY stay the same…
I forgot to include the medical establishment in my previous email about our
lively discussion, but they definitely belong in the CORPORATION section. It is
extremely sad to see how drug companies and HMOs are running medicine… a
business should NOT be allowed to control science, for the simple reason that
business and science have vastly different philosophies. It pains me to see how
so many doctors are becoming the puppets of this vast network of corporations
that controls their strings, making sure they do the most cost-effective
procedures, or dispense the least costly drugs, regardless of the patient’s
health and well being. And just look how expensive these medications are in the
US compared to other countries… when greed reigns over our own health, it is a
really sad state of affairs. Our govt is in on this too, as the recent flap of
FDA approved medication (rushed because of the all powerful drug companies)
resulting in patient deaths reveals. It is sad to see how this unholy triad of
government-corporation-church has infiltrated every avenue of our way of life.
About the ET thing, I actually agree with you that a race that has achieved the
level of technological superiority needed to traverse the vastness of
interstellar space would probably have to be benevolent because violence begets
violence, and not only that, violence is self destructive (take the simple case
of humanity, for example.) Any species that is intelligent enough and advanced
enough to conquer the enormous scientific obstacles needed to accomplish this
feat has probably conquered its innate tendencies towards violence as well. (That
comes first I think.) I give humanity 500 years or so to be able to do this…
if it doesnt extinguish itself first!
Now regarding alien visitation, I am still on the fence… for a few different
reasons. I think it’s possible for aliens to have visited Earth simply to
satisfy their scientific curiosity… and we being the paranoid species that we
are, shot down their craft and covered up the event, for fear of discovery.
There’s a few logical reasons for doing this… (1) the paranoia that has
existed in this country since world war 2 and the ensuing cold war predicated
that any tactical advantage gained from such a capture should be kept under
wraps (2) the populace was uptight and antsy about a potential red army invasion,
no need to drive them into mass hysteria and (3) in the unlikely event that an
alien invasion was being planned, it was better for the invaders not to know
that we had captured their technology. Now mind you, I know this sounds very far-fetched,
but it is something that is still possible, and not out of the capabilities of
our wonderful government to perpetrate.
Now John, you might ask, why are the (hypothesized) visitations so few and far
between and why are they not occuring in more public places? I also feel that
any race that has the advanced technological capability to come here, also has
the capability to cloak itself from our sensors, something which the stealth
bomber does (hmmm…), but this would be on a much grander scale. It’s possible
that nearby interstellar space is teeming with alien vehicles which we simply
would have no way of detecting because of (1) vast distances between stars and (2)
the possible existence of such cloaking devices. If we extend this analogy
outward, then we become like the native americans, aborgines, or whatever you
want to call them, and these other races are the ones who hold all the cards as
well as the answers to some of our most asked questions regarding the nature of
the Universe and indeed the purpose of our existence. We would be no more than a
passing curiosity to them, a celestial backwater as it were, a “hillbilly” world
among countless others…
In this theory, although the aliens have cloaking sensors, once in a while, for
various reasons, their equipment might fail (all technology, no matter how
advanced carries at least a slight risk of failure), and when such a failure
occurs, our ever vigilant government steps in to cover it all up. Farfetched?
Probably. Impossible? No… I’m not going to go into all the eyewitness reports
of UFOs or the reported cases of abductions, psychological evaluations of
abductees, hypnotic and lie detector test verification that the abductees
actually BELIEVE they were abducted, as well as the phenomenom of “missing time,”
a time period varying from seconds to days to weeks to months, during which the
abductee doesnt recall what happened, except under hypnosis, which in some cases
reveals repressed memories of alien experimentation of various kinds. (Maybe
they are so far beyond us that we are mere lab rats for their medical research!)
I havent personally known of anyone to have this happen to them, but Ive heard
about it from various sources, even some in the scientific establishment. I
think it’s something that merits further investigation as an area of possible
coverup. An open mind is our greatest weapon against conservatism and societal
decay! John, it’s wise to not leave any stone unturned, no matter how unlikely
one might think the possibility is…
How do we effect any sort of change in the vicious cycle of greed, deceit and
coverup that pollutes our way of life? Well, education for starters. Having gone
through the NY school system, I will tell you from experience, that education is
where it all begins. It seems to me that the brainwashing starts at a very young
age… schools just do not let our kids think for themselves. Everything seems
to be about memorization and following the rules; individuality and innovative
thought get crushed in the process. Our school systems actually DISCOURAGE
education by making it unimaginative, lackluster and boring. Our school systems
would be wonderful for educating robots, but we are thinking feeling sentient
beings who need MUCH more than knowledge. We need wisdom; wisdom to make the
right choices, wisdom to think independently, creatively, outside the box. It
makes me sad to think that the education of our youngsters has turned into one
more assembly line, not very different from the polluted factories that dot our
landscape like a malignant cancer. In this case however, the ones being polluted
are the future hope of this once-great land.
Of course, once in a while, someone slips through the cracks of our flawed
society and becomes someone great, someone to change the system for the better…
only to be summarily quashed into silence or even nonexistence. JFK, RFK, Martin
Luther King Jr are three prominent examples from the 60s… Im sure the “powers
that be” have grown MUCH more subtle since then, both in our country and abroad,
to keep their assets and asses from becoming endangered with much less media
attention. I have no doubt that some of our modern-day “rabble rousers” are
actually people who might effect change for the better, if they were allowed to.
But they get branded the label of villain instead… (Gotta have a scapegoat, eh?
Keep it simple to keep the masses happy and have the real villains go free to
keep on committing their crimes, while the ones who try to end the vicious cycle
get put away! The irony of it all would be funny if it wasnt so tragic. Reminds
me of some Shakespearian plays actually… I guess things havent changed much
since those days.)
Meanwhile our culture and environment suffer the consequences of these flawed
actions, as we exist in “blissful” ignorance while our atmosphere gets polluted,
our forests get chopped down, and our minds get numbed to whats really going on.
In spite of all this I am still optimistic that, somehow, the human species will
pull through this, and reach a brighter tomorrow, but I am not so sure America
will lead the way. Sadly it seems more likely that America will be a hinderance
to progress, because our overbearing bureaucracy will resist change no matter
what the cost. It really pains me to say that because I really love my country
and I hate to see what it has become. I really hope America pulls out of its
collective funk, but just like our current winter of discontent, time is short
and the endgame is nearing a final conclusion…
PS – I actually got into an argument last night with an engineer who works at
one of the oil plants down in Texas, who said it is easy for me to say we must
stop using fossil fuels when I have a car that runs on oil and a house heated my
natural gas. They told me that the world is run by money so just “go with it.”
And that new oil was being found off the coasts of Australia, South America etc
(obviously to the detriment of the environment and the ecosystem -my answer),
when I told them to enjoy their fossil fuels while they last. My answer to them
was that I would easily go to solar power for my heating and electric fuel for
my car if industry would show the willingness to innovate and actually make a
concerted effort to make these technologies viable and reproducible over a large
scale. We all know the ability is there, it is just a question of motivation on
the part of those who hold the cards.
I wonder why it is that in “modern” times, patching up the wound has become the
mode of action, instead of looking for a viable cure. It always seems to me that
if we actually spent the time looking for a solution to our problems, rather
than covering up, MUCH more time, effort and yes our GOD… money, would be
saved. But no one thinks of the long term anymore… (Maybe because they dont
think there will be a long term… hmmm!)
John, I really enjoy our conversations, it helps me to focus my own thoughts
better and to concentrate on the big picture. Meteorology is only a subset of
life, but you can see all the shortcomings (climate changes, government coverups
of such, ignorance of whats happening right under our noses) as well as the
advantages (this forum, active discussion of ideas and the sharing of knowledge)
within this microcosm. It frustrates me when people try to dismiss global
warming as another crackpot tableaux idea dreamed up by uneducated delusional
people. Well, it is the naysayers who are delusional if they dont see the
evidence staring them right in the face: the great arctic icemelt and the
alarmingly active hurricane seasons of the recent past (sorry this isnt a “cycle,”
I dont seem to remember 26 named storms in any previous “cycle”) with a
mindboggling amount of major hurricanes, the likes of which have never been
witnessed before, should have given even the mentally challenged a clue about
what was going on. Maybe another Katrina will finally let them see the light…
oh wait, we are still in the midst of that 20 yr “cycle”…
PPS- I think its highly ironic how these GW induced storms (GW could stand for
Global Warning or GW Bush… take your pick :-P) are targetting oil-refinery
rich areas….. Mother Nature does have a wonderful sense of whimsy doesnt she…
(Now I know why Nature is considered female!)
Monday, June 05, 2006
John’s Comeback Part 3
Did you catch the CBS evening news last evening…?
Well, the short and skinny was this…
…Fascinating coincidence or merely an astute and brilliant insight on our part?
Probably some of both, but an interesting new phenomenon has just started
occurring in the last 2 weeks along the southern flanks of the Greenland
Before writing any further, you should (and may already..) know that if all the
ice on Greenland were to end up in the sea, Global sea-surface levels would rise
5+ meters all over the world. If that were to happen in a single calamitous week
(or other virtual instantaneity by geo-temporal standards) it would quite
intuitively destroy the entire World’s economy…end of discussion.
The current paradigm has too many huge finacial districts, controls and
ultimately dependencies on these economic centroids located within reach of such
a watery wrecking-bal. Take a good look at those dimensions in that Natural
disaster flick, “The Day After Tomorrow”…When the tsunamis come into NYC …?
Those dimensions are almost correct, if the majority of the Greenland Icecap
were to suddenly and cataclysmically disassociate its self from the land mass
and glide seawards one sunny June afternoon..
Just as a perfunctory suspicion…this would touch off so much pervasive panic
and Global social duress that warfair would likely erupt very quickly. It is a
scary vision, but horrors from pandemia to geo-based destructive forces (or any
patterns of warfair by lesser cooperates), all would likely contribute a pretty
impressive population adjustment..
Whether this is by some grand design as either a fictional work, reality could
ever prove, or just an unfortunate result of a dim-witted species
anthropomorphizing a planet without extending clad science before doing so…
the fact remains: evidence is mounting that a transition into a new pardigm of a
hot-house Earth will deeply not molly-cottle us and the other species of life on
this Planet. The change will likely happen in a series of cataclysms both subtle
and gross, and the survivability of lesser advantaged will deeply lose impunity.
We’ve spoke of this at length and description and how it may be plied into some
kind of fictional/creative work, in the past, so I find it interesting if not
ironic what the CBS story told. So here goes…
Magnitude 5.0 “Icequakes” are shuddering the land-scape of Greenland. Basically,
huge glacial masses the size of Manhattan, as thick as the Empire State Building,
are bodily slipping seawards at roughly 2 cab-lengths per lurch. Ice/land
temblors are not that uncommon, but these magnitudes were not observed prior to
this last year – as it was intimated.
In case you are not privy as to how this works: Recent decade of accelerating
warming at that latitude is causing water to accumulate at the interface between
the glaciers and the land. This serves as a lubricant, which may sound silly but
is true. If you place a brick on a 45 degree angle (as an example) of a dry
surface, the large frictional coeficient of the brick material with respect to
that surface would likely hold it suspended on the incline. Now…apply water to
the interface, …down she goes. The macrocosm works the same way.
The weight of these parsels is absolutely gargantuan. As they melt the hydrosols
thus lower the friction, slippage as opposed to the steady flow rate hypothesis
has been materializing, literally just across recent times. Since we are
discussing such magnitudes it is quite obvious that a single season would only
have negligible environmental register.. Still, that this is only March is a
nice homage to an interseasonal characteristic phenomenon, evidence of a
profound systemic change. Not only occurring, but doing so (as one noted
climatologist in the report pointed out) “…At a faster rate than we had
originally thought”. So, these massive bodies literally rumble across the land
surface and cause these temblors.
I find this odd. I just wrote a rather lengthy passage in a thread 2 weeks ago,
where I exemplified Greenland ice displacement…Then this news report surfaces.
I do this all the time, I make whimsy supposition and then immediately the
variables begin to surface.
Anyway, also, arouses the notion that it may be possible to deposit huge
fractions of the Greenland ice-mass seaward in a short order calamities…